Monstrous

Monstropedia => Mythical Monsters => Topic started by: Demona on August 07, 2007, 01:53:39 PM

Title: are dragons evil?
Post by: Demona on August 07, 2007, 01:53:39 PM
Hope this is fine to make a new topic...the others were towards the bottom of the page here.  :|

I don't believe in dragons, all they are to me is fantasy creatures from stories. Cool nevertheless. I know the medieval European ones were portrayed as monsters, but the Asian kind are something of good luck. What do you think a dragon is?
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Thundergod on August 07, 2007, 02:08:38 PM
possibly a culmination of human fears. giant lizards maybe, dinasours who like crocidiles survived the ages but later died out. machines created by man to breath fire perhaps. or the devil himself. there are so many things we do not yet know.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Demona on August 07, 2007, 08:40:07 PM
Humans were not yet around when dinosaurs lived, so unless we're talking bones discovered, then who knows. As far as devils go, and that sort of thing, I don't really believe they have an appearance at all, so that's just using imagination.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Zak Roy Yoballa on August 08, 2007, 03:46:47 PM
I copied this from another post but it applies here equally well.



Quote
From a mythological stand point, each particular region had it's own version of a dragon.  There are some commonalities between them though. 

Most are seen as a combination of creatures, the Middle East thought of them as Head and tail of a serpent, front part of a lion and hind legs of a falcon... In East Asia they are a combination of the horns of a deer, head of a camel, carp scales, tiger feet and eagle claws
All are high symbolic: European and Middle Eastern traditions viewed them as the opposite of man or completely un-human; while the Asian lands viewed them in several different ways, both good and bad
All viewed them as powerful (albeit sometimes fearful!)

I would go on to say that it seems plausible that there existed some form of large creature that struck awe into man in every area of the globe.  I think that they were called 'dragons' out of a lack of any other definition.  I also think that, like all camp fire tales, became exagerations of the truth.   

In three hundred years, I would be interested in knowing what our descendants will think of our attitudes towards dragons.  Seeing all the tatoos on people, neon signs hanging in shops, etc.  How humorous would it be if this was a big practicle joke started in the Babylon (oldest version of a dragon I'm aware of: Marduk VS Tiamat) to scare little children into being good and now look where we are at!!!

ZRY



ZRY
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Demona on August 09, 2007, 10:20:12 AM
I copied this from another post but it applies here equally well.



Quote
From a mythological stand point, each particular region had it's own version of a dragon.  There are some commonalities between them though. 

Most are seen as a combination of creatures, the Middle East thought of them as Head and tail of a serpent, front part of a lion and hind legs of a falcon... In East Asia they are a combination of the horns of a deer, head of a camel, carp scales, tiger feet and eagle claws
All are high symbolic: European and Middle Eastern traditions viewed them as the opposite of man or completely un-human; while the Asian lands viewed them in several different ways, both good and bad
All viewed them as powerful (albeit sometimes fearful!)

I would go on to say that it seems plausible that there existed some form of large creature that struck awe into man in every area of the globe.  I think that they were called 'dragons' out of a lack of any other definition.  I also think that, like all camp fire tales, became exagerations of the truth.   

In three hundred years, I would be interested in knowing what our descendants will think of our attitudes towards dragons.  Seeing all the tatoos on people, neon signs hanging in shops, etc.  How humorous would it be if this was a big practicle joke started in the Babylon (oldest version of a dragon I'm aware of: Marduk VS Tiamat) to scare little children into being good and now look where we are at!!!

ZRY



ZRY
Head of a lion, tail of a serpent...haven't you just described a Chiamara? (sp?)
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Moloch on August 10, 2007, 03:46:00 PM
A 'Chimaera', had three heads usually. Therein lies the difference.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Demona on August 11, 2007, 11:58:51 AM
But certainly some dragons could have had three heads also, couldn't they?
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Moloch on August 11, 2007, 01:54:28 PM
Yes, but all three heads would have been dragon heads. On a Chimaera, each head is of a different creature entirely.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Seth on October 02, 2007, 05:28:36 AM
Let me go ahead and say this and sound like an idiot:

Dragons ARE real, they DID exist, and no one can tell me otherwise!

Ok, now that that's done, I don't think all dragons are evil.  If they existed, God made them. (Yes, I'm Christian).  If God made them, then they were intended for a good purpose.  If they were half as intelligent as people make them out to be, then there's a good likelihood that Satan got involved in the mix and corrupted them just like humans were corrupted.

Think i've thought about this too long?  :-D
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Moloch on October 02, 2007, 05:47:20 AM
Indeed.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Thundergod on October 02, 2007, 10:22:59 PM
not long enough, check out revelations a little. im not highly religious but i know enough to know that in Christian culture and folk lore dragons are considered evil, and servants or demons/Satan himself. u should think about it more.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Seth on October 03, 2007, 04:19:30 AM
*snorts* i have my theory on that one.

It's medieval Europe. (or whenever revelation was written). what is the one thing everyone fears? Dragons! What would you use in a symbolic story to tell people that they should fear this particular thing/person? A dragon!

Revelation uses symbolism to tell the story.  Considering how long its been since then, God knew they wouldn't be able to understand tanks and missiles and the like.  So I let that apply to the dragon too.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Moloch on October 03, 2007, 04:37:02 AM
Revelation was written BEFORE even the Roman Empire began its rise to power. That being the case, no, dragons were not used in that capacity. Please, try again.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Raziel on October 03, 2007, 05:49:24 AM
make a dragon smilly! rawr.



Dragons symbolize power and authority right?( the teeth denoting its fierceness. the fire its nature and arrogance.)

Therefore when it was used in the book of revelation, wouldn't it be plausible that they were different heads(leaders) to a giant powerful, influential organizartion/ entity?
(conspiracy theorists rejoice!!!)
Like a religion of some kind or maybe another type of ideology?

*cough*USA*cough*Roman ChathO*cough* pizza HUTTTT!!!! :-D
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Moloch on October 03, 2007, 08:18:52 AM
It's Starbucks, not Pizza Hut. Stop picking on the pepperoni providers!!

Seriously though, that is more or less what is meant by it in the Bible. Keep in mind though, that the Bible has been corrupted many times over and in my honest opinion should not be taken at face value any more.

Seth, while you adore Dragons and such, keep in mind that they are not the same creatures with the same purpose in all cultures. The Western Dragon, as many of us know them, is a ferocious killing machine, something to be feared. In the Eastern traditions though, it was lucky being, and was also represented as spirits of the Air, Land, and Water. Take also into account that allegedly, dragons were originally a trick played on sojourning knights. Many "baby dragons" alleged to have been brought back by knights after the parent had been vanquished were nothing more than embalmed monkeys.

There is no evidence one way or the other as to the truth of their existence. If you believe in them, then you do just as Christians and many others do - you believe on faith alone.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Raziel on October 03, 2007, 08:58:08 AM
Rawr if you love 'em!!!!

 :gun: you if you hunt 'em.

a *<:) if you try and punt them.

and  0:) if you try and  :-fly) 'em

.



I say shakey's has better pep an salami. :mrgreen: TH DO ISH BACCCKKKK
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Seth on October 03, 2007, 05:07:35 PM
Believing on faith alone is something i do VERRRRY well.  :roll:
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Glor85 on September 01, 2008, 11:49:30 AM
No, Dragons can't be evil. Sometimes I dream of a dragon that is sad in a green forest, and he/she calls me and i try n save it :(
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Whitedrake on October 12, 2008, 08:07:05 AM

interesting..but wouldnt it make sense to view dragons as we do humans..i mean some are evil, some are good, some we consider evil are just doing what they felt was needed to ensure their own survival. to call something evil means little, evil is nothing more than a word, and only carries weight when there is a consensus on what evil is. since every culture has its on values on what is good and just  i think it makes sense to just say dragons are dragons
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Regina Terra on October 12, 2008, 11:12:46 AM
No, Dragons AREN'T just Dragons. THEY ARE SUPR FLY!!!! :-D

Seriously, I've been obsessed with them since I was very little. Even had dreams about them.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Tybalt on October 12, 2008, 06:28:21 PM
White Drake, this topic is kinda been dead. Like almost before I came on, just let this one die.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Mahiqun on January 04, 2009, 10:26:21 AM
Dragons from European culture are mostly evil- dominated by the vision from st John's Revelation where dragon symbolize the Satan. In Asia they developed on different background totally independently, they bring luck. Nearly in every culture there's sort of giant reptilian creature and our culture gave them all the name of dragons but they aren't really related to each other so their meaning in the culture differs
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Nina on January 04, 2009, 01:24:05 PM
I got the impression about the dragons that they are neither good or evil, or better, they can be whatever they choose like, cause they are very similar to humans in many stories. So, my call on this would be that it depends on culture and story. There are stories where dragons helped men, and on the other hand, we have stories about dragons hunting men. But, humans arent better, so for me, they are dual in their nature same as us.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Mahiqun on January 04, 2009, 05:31:58 PM
"Yet draggons are notte liken unicornes, I willen. They dwellyth in some Realm defined bye thee Fancie of the Wille and, thus, it myte bee thate whomsover calleth upon them, and giveth them theyre patheway unto this worlde, calleth theyre Owne dragon of the Mind"(Terry Pratchett)
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Raziel on January 22, 2009, 11:13:00 AM
dragons represent nature and the 4 directions in some magic systems.......... perhaps the serpentine body symbolizes flow and the wings symbolize power....................... fire would symbolize change or life.


Dragon= Life energy flowing throughout  nature????
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: avocabryan on January 22, 2009, 11:43:02 AM
Dragones can be either good or evil depending on where they come from.And as to wether or not they are real, I was told that someone found a frozen one in iceland. I also heard somebody found a skull.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Ryobi on January 22, 2009, 04:43:47 PM
Actually there was a documentary about these archeologist who excavated what looked to be the skeleton of a dragon. The entire anatomy was explained, how the creature breathed fire, how it stood on four legs and yet still had wings etc. If you approach the theory of a fully functioning and real 'dragon' from an entirely scientific point of view, then it is pheasible. They believe that the creature was only alive in prehistoric times, maybe people found the skeletons.

But to the point if you choose to believe that dragons were only alive during prehistoric times then there is no evidence that they were highly evolved. Possibly they were of the same average intelligence as other species alive in this time period. Being an animal would give the dragon strong survival instincts but not really an idea of good and evil beyond whoever is an enemy at that point in time.

I feel that the whole archetype of good and evil for animals is simply based on who is attacking or generally being nasty to us at present or what has the potential to hurt us severly in the future. Humans seem to have taken this a bit further, they analyse how likely it is that someone will hurt them and call their findings traits and qualities. I think most other animals simply leave it as, that guys evil because he's hurting me/babies/pack lets get him in self defence, survival style.

In other words, wether any animal is good or evil is entirely relative to the situation. Not because that's how we view it, simply because thats how the dragon would view it.   
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on January 23, 2009, 01:37:24 AM
Dragons are often regarded as supernatural beings that rank right up there with gods and demons. As such, they sometimes have a tendency to fall into the dichtomy of good and evil. However, if you look at certain mythologies, you'll discover that these systems of belief view dragons as creatures that aren't strictly either evil or good. Dragons often being perceived as manifestations of natural forces, tend to be understood as mercurial beings that can be benovalent on one hand and yet utterly  destructive on the other. Chinese dragons for example, cause the rains to fall when they're in a good mood, but when upset at mortals, withold them, causing terrible droughts.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Mr. Kreepy on January 23, 2009, 04:35:00 AM
Actually there was a documentary about these archeologist who excavated what looked to be the skeleton of a dragon. The entire anatomy was explained, how the creature breathed fire, how it stood on four legs and yet still had wings etc. If you approach the theory of a fully functioning and real 'dragon' from an entirely scientific point of view, then it is pheasible. They believe that the creature was only alive in prehistoric times, maybe people found the skeletons.

The "documentary" I believe you're referring to was actually a MOCKumentary called The Last Dragon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragons:_A_Fantasy_Made_Real). It was aired by BBC and Discovery Channel.
Nice try though.

Anyway, to get back to topic...
The prevalence of dragons and dragon-like creatures in worldwide mythologies points to an origin in one of the very first human cultures to exist, from which sprang every other culture. That's the only way something like that could be so abundant in something as chaotic as human cultural traditions.
In my opinion, the early versions of the dragon (from which all other depictions came from) represent the ultimate predator. It has a body similar to a big cat, talons and wings of a predatory bird, and reptilian traits in representation of the cold reptilian cunning our prehistoric ancestors had to deal with in the form of snakes, lizards, and crocodilians.
Such a creature would have held a great importance to some early tribe of humans, for it would embody everything in their savage lives that they had to fight against.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Ryobi on January 23, 2009, 04:43:21 AM
Actually there was a documentary about these archeologist who excavated what looked to be the skeleton of a dragon. The entire anatomy was explained, how the creature breathed fire, how it stood on four legs and yet still had wings etc. If you approach the theory of a fully functioning and real 'dragon' from an entirely scientific point of view, then it is pheasible. They believe that the creature was only alive in prehistoric times, maybe people found the skeletons.

The "documentary" I believe you're referring to was actually a MOCKumentary called The Last Dragon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragons:_A_Fantasy_Made_Real). It was aired by BBC and Discovery Channel.
Nice try though.

Anyway, to get back to topic...
The prevalence of dragons and dragon-like creatures in worldwide mythologies points to an origin in one of the very first human cultures to exist, from which sprang every other culture. That's the only way something like that could be so abundant in something as chaotic as human cultural traditions.
In my opinion, the early versions of the dragon (from which all other depictions sprang forth) represent the ultimate predator. It has a body similar to a big cat, talons and wings of a predatory bird, and reptilian traits in representation of the cold reptilian cunning our prehistoric ancestors had to deal with in the form of snakes, lizards, and crocodilians.
Such a creature would have held a great importance to some early tribe of humans, for it would embody everything in their savage lives that they had to fight against.

Hey I didn't say that they were telling the truth just that their theory showed that a real dragon could exist, so yes thanks, I think that was a pretty good try  :-D

However it has also been said that other cultures have used the idea of a dragon to symbolise many other things, both malefic and benefic.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Mr. Kreepy on January 23, 2009, 04:51:04 AM
Yes, but traditional depictions of draconian/reptilian monsters in both the archaelogical record and folklore originating in Africa (the culture I was referring to) have no such ambiguity about them.
Besides, the universally powerful role the dragons play in the various cultures is a testament to the predatory role they've played in human legend.
In fact, a similar instance of this sort of cultural evolution is the wild and uncontrollable "wild man" figure I've mentioned before around the forum that originally represented animals such as bears, wolves, and apes, and eventually evolved into such diverse paternal figures as Odin, The Holly King, Santa Claus, the Sasquatch of Native American legend, Pan, Bacchus, and Cernunnos. All of them sprang from the same source, but due to each culture's attitude toward the figure's aspects it evolved into much-loved or outright hated characters and legendary figures.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Ryobi on January 23, 2009, 04:59:48 AM
Saying all dragons are symbolically evil is like saying all by-products of corn are corn.

So I agree with you, due to the evolution of the myth about dragons and how it has expanded, their are many different views on wether it is archetypically good or evil. Therefore because of this it is impossible to say wether a dragon is an evil or good being without bringing personal opinion into the mix.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Mr. Kreepy on January 23, 2009, 05:06:27 AM
Never once did I say they're evil. I said that they originally represented a powerful predator figure. In some cultures, this made them wise beings to be worshipped or sought out for their wisdom, in others it made them vile abominations. Nothing about that has anything to do with good or evil. The fact is that they're ambiguous figures that can't be confined one way or the other.

If you removed your cranium from your hindquarters for any significant length of time and stopped trying to be right, you might realize that we're agreeing with each other so there's no need to continue to fabricate supposed holes in my argument in order for you to blither on about.
Is that cool with you? :wink:
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Ryobi on January 23, 2009, 05:21:45 AM
Hey Mr Kreepy didn't I just say I agreed with you? Read my posts before you insult them or myself. I found fault in your points and also evidence that you felt dragons to be entirely evil. No need to get riled up over such a thing.

In response to my 'both malefic and benefic' statement you responded:

Quote
Yes, but traditional depictions of draconian/reptilian monsters in both the archaelogical record and folklore originating in Africa (the culture I was referring to) have no such ambiguity about them.

Also this statement to me seems to say 'oh dragons are bad because they were taditionally viewed as the epitome of everything bad:

Quote
Such a creature would have held a great importance to some early tribe of humans, for it would embody everything in their savage lives that they had to fight against.
.

I must have been mistaken to assume you thought of dragons as evil. These are the two comments I found fault in and adressed, I also said that I agreed with the other parts of your posts as I didn't find fault in these because they supported what I believe to be accurate.

Not only does my head reside in it's rightful place outside of my ass it also doesn't see how this is a matter of being right or wrong or a matter of fabricating holes. I simply responded to your posts and told you my thoughts, it's usually what happens in a conversation, very sorry that you feel the need to blatantly insult me when your point has already been made.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Mr. Kreepy on January 23, 2009, 05:26:58 AM
Did anyone hear something? No? I didn't think so, so let's get :focus:

What I find interesting is how common it is that such archaic classifications as "good" and "evil" are forced upon legendary creatures that, even in the ancient legends and lore that describe them, significantly lack such moralistic classifications.
Anyone have an idea of why that might be?
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Ryobi on January 23, 2009, 05:36:31 AM
Well basically every story from the Iliad to local folklore follows the archetype of good and evil, light and dark, hero and villian and right and wrong. It is good entertainment value and does teach moral value and societal morals. Legendary creatures came to life in these stories that comply with this criteria, it seems only fitting that such criteria will apply to the characters of the stories as well as the stories themselves.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Mr. Kreepy on January 23, 2009, 05:38:23 AM
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear...

What I find interesting is how common it is that such archaic classifications as "good" and "evil" are forced upon legendary creatures that, even in the ancient legends and lore that describe them, significantly lack such moralistic classifications.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Ryobi on January 23, 2009, 05:43:24 AM
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear...

What I find interesting is how common it is that such archaic classifications as "good" and "evil" are forced upon legendary creatures that, even in the ancient legends and lore that describe them, significantly lack such moralistic classifications.

I know what you said, I was trying to show you that these things do exhibit morals, be it through living by those morals or through a lack of morals. Good and evil gives a person a sense of what is right and wrong within a society, obeying waht is right is considered having moral standards.

Unless I misunderstood maybe try to explain more simply so that my frontal lobe can process at this time of day  :-P
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on January 23, 2009, 05:47:23 AM
I'd really appreciate it if we kept the personal sniping to a minimum, Kreep and Bo. Having said that, I strongly urge everyone to do as kreep suggested and return to the subject of this thread.   

 
Quote
Yes, but traditional depictions of draconian/reptilian monsters in both the archaelogical record and folklore originating in Africa (the culture I was referring to) have no such ambiguity about them.


Kreepy, would you be able to clarify this statement for us? The statement seems to imply that first recorded dragons in existence may have been malovelant beings. Thanks.


As for the question that you just posed, it's certainly an interesting one. It might be possible that back in those hoary days, people had the rather accurate understanding, that just like the forces of nature that they were supposed to embody, supernatural beings like dragons were simply oblivious to artificial social constructs like ''good'' and ''evil''.   Recognising  that all beings operated on on the ''might is right '' principle  was probably the norm among people who didn't have the luxury of imagining otherwise.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Mr. Kreepy on January 23, 2009, 05:55:07 AM
Kreepy, would you be able to clarify this statement for us? The statement seems to imply that first recorded dragons in existence may have been malovelant beings. Thanks.

Dangerous and powerful is what I meant. In the simplistic cultural minds of early cultures anything that was dangerous was "evil", so I meant that dragons starting out as dangerous beings instead of the positive and God-like roles they played in certain cultures later in history.

As for the question that you just posed, it's certainly an interesting one. It might be possible that back in those hoary days, people had the rather accurate understanding, that just like the forces of nature that they were supposed to embody, supernatural beings like dragons were simply oblivious to artificial social constructs like ''good'' and ''evil''.   Recognising  that all beings operated on on the ''might is right '' principle  was probably the norm among people who didn't have the luxury of imagining otherwise.

I'd say that's a pretty accurate guess as to why the creatures were stripped of the moral classifications they were give later on, in times when good and evil were more widespread concepts.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on January 24, 2009, 11:20:31 PM
Quote
Well basically every story from the Iliad to local folklore follows the archetype of good and evil, light and dark, hero and villian and right and wrong. It is good entertainment value and does teach moral value and societal morals. Legendary creatures came to life in these stories that comply with this criteria, it seems only fitting that such criteria will apply to the characters of the stories as well as the stories themselves.


I'm not going to deny the veracity of your statement. However, if you study the kind of ancient tales that you mentioned, with the Illiad being a prime example, you'll realise that morality only applies with mere mortals. Mighty gods and other supernatural beings like Zeus were pretty much allowed to get away with anything.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Mr. Kreepy on January 24, 2009, 11:29:45 PM
I definitely agree, blow_fly, and in my opinion that's the way it should be...
Those stories serve a purpose in our culture, and humankind needs to have some sort of chaos that it can tame or overcome. Without that the stories don't seem to have the same effect.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on January 25, 2009, 12:06:44 AM
True. Without amoral monsters to face and overcome, morality and virture would have no dramatic examples  to display them.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Green Dragon on June 08, 2009, 12:22:05 PM
There are still reports of dragons today. Asia is a hot spot for them. As recently as 2004 -2005 there were dragon reports in Lake Tienchi in China.
I have researched dragons for years and have writtern two books on them. I am amazed at how the sighting around the world are the same. From West Afric to Australia, from Indonesia to Mongolia and China all the witnesses were describing the same animal. An elongate, serpentine creature with a crested, horse-like head. It's scales are dark green or black with a rainbow sheen like oil on water. They describe four short legs and two small bact-like wings. They are associated with water.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Nightlife258 on August 10, 2009, 08:16:09 AM
Okay it really depends what type of dragon you're talking about most dragons are okay unless provoked only a few are actualy pure evil. Plus they are quite democratic creatures(from a book) note: i have never actually had any form of contact with any monster (but i went on a ghost tour but they were maybe not in the mood to prank anyone) but i believe that dragons are very misunderstood creatures. note that in the bible the "dragon" is really the devil taking the form of a dragon. Plus the never believe in monachy they're more democratic as i mentioned.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Raziel on August 11, 2009, 09:39:47 AM
Okay it really depends what type of dragon you're talking about most dragons are okay unless provoked only a few are actualy pure evil. Plus they are quite democratic creatures(from a book) note: i have never actually had any form of contact with any monster (but i went on a ghost tour but they were maybe not in the mood to prank anyone) but i believe that dragons are very misunderstood creatures. note that in the bible the "dragon" is really the devil taking the form of a dragon. Plus the never believe in monachy they're more democratic as i mentioned.

Without the proper references. i have to call this post rubbish.
(regardless of how entertaining the notion of a democratic solitary giant lizard with piles of gold and awesome fire breath is.)
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Ryobi on August 11, 2009, 05:50:21 PM
Give me a few more days to work out how dragons are democratic and then maybe a few more to work out how that relates to the notion of good and evil.

No, that was harsh, if you could clear up a few loose ends Nightlife? It would help greatly in chasing away the confusion bugs...
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Raziel on August 11, 2009, 11:29:45 PM
*starts barfing uncontrollably*
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: KubeSix on August 12, 2009, 12:33:07 AM
I don't understand how solitary creatures could be democratic in the first place... Democracy means everybody gets a vote in a matter, if you're alone voting... That's not even a vote :-P (... They... are supposed to be solitary.... right? XD) Plus, democracy doesn't make them good or evil (i hate using those words, but o well) its the choice you'd make after debating that would be good or evil. But we've already settled in the "What is Evil?" thread that whatever you do, if you vote for something and it happens, chances are you consider it good, whatever others might think and that good or evil are just a question of perspective... (I other words, you can't have pure evil dragons)

I hope the book you cited isn't the D&D Draconomicon or something like that... <-- Mumbling :-fly)

Dragons are cool, though :3

And as Raz said: we need sources. (I'll refrain from barfing all over the place, though :roll:)
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Raziel on August 12, 2009, 01:57:35 AM
Oops posted that in the wrong thread. could a mod clean that up? thanks!

( i believe i have just turned a moderator into a janitor by pure accident..... cool)

Oh and about the dragons, Do we consider Modern sources from fantasy games valid or not?
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: onishadowolf on August 12, 2009, 11:50:06 PM
Sorry Raz not my area.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Ryobi on August 12, 2009, 11:57:42 PM
It depends on where those fantasy games reference from, however, even if they do reference, a person is technically still not using that fantasy game but instead the information relayed through that game by reliable sources.

In short not really...
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: KubeSix on August 13, 2009, 01:46:08 PM
When making a game the developers tend to modify stuff to make it more spectacular and/or more fitting for the game's setting, so they're not really good sources...
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Raziel on August 16, 2009, 11:57:58 AM
Pity.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Ryobi on August 16, 2009, 02:41:33 PM
Sounds like nearly every piece of literature we have left from the ancient world. Still use those though, as long as you mention 'THIS CONTENT MAY BE EXAGERRATED BEYOND ALL BELIEF IN THE NAME OF DRAMATIC LICENSE' everything's cool.


Apparently.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Levinthross on August 19, 2009, 03:50:52 PM
its very funny how someone could think of a species of very large very intelligent probably territorial beings would most likely have there society based on a democratic structure.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Ryobi on August 23, 2009, 01:56:25 PM
Haha it's somewhat more ironic that we find it funny.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Alayla on August 23, 2009, 06:58:26 PM
I believe this depends on where your mythology is coming from. Obviously, in Europe, dragons are considered greedy, selfish, and yes, perhaps evil; but in China dragons are good.

Dragons are found in many regions' mythology, and are depicted different ways.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Levinthross on August 24, 2009, 03:36:32 PM
si so i would have to again go with the theory that evil is only what opposes you and its just a fictional mindset e.t.c yadda yadda yadda
scaled creatures are cool especially newts
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: KubeSix on August 24, 2009, 06:46:08 PM
Yeah one way or another, if you look at the What is Evil thread, this one is meaningless :-P

(I'm still waiting on the source for the democratic dragons)
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on August 27, 2009, 09:40:29 AM
 Democratic dragons?? I think my brain just shat itself.....

 I don't think of anything as strictly good or evil. Angels fell from Heaven to make Satan and demons... (if that's something you believe in) So who's to say for sure one way or the other about a creature. Unless you're best friends with it.  :wink:




 Edit: somehow one of my words was missing...
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on September 05, 2009, 09:02:31 PM
In the Christian west, dragons apparently were cast as embodiments of utter evil due by the early Christian fathers who were purpotedly determined to distort the character and nature of some of the more serpentine totems that the pagan tribes possesed, an endeavour which hence resulted in the dragon being depicted as an entity synonymous with terror and chaos, as well as greed and avarice. Hence, the moral attributes ascribed to such potentially non-existent creatures may have more to do with our own ingrained beliefs than with the actual nature of said creatures.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on September 06, 2009, 12:58:08 PM
 Are these the same Christians that killed people for not believing the way they did? If so... I don't want to be in their club, they suck.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on September 06, 2009, 06:40:45 PM
Well, in certain areas of Euope, Christianity was certainly spread with the aid of the sword as can be seen in the religious crusades undertaken by early Christian kingdoms against their pagan neighbours. It is possible that armed victory over tribes that revered dragonish beings as symbols of the natural forces that they worshipped, could have motivated later generations of Christians to produce the richly detailed illustrations that often depict especially cherished saints slaughtering vile looking drgaons.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on September 06, 2009, 06:57:20 PM
 I didn't necessarily mean just dragons or even old society....

 Couldn't it be just as possible that they were depicted in that way because, to christians, dragons actually represented evil?
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: LeXtruX on September 12, 2009, 07:16:54 AM
I would say they aren't always evil, some asian cultures have dragon protectors, if I'm not mistaken ofcourse?
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on September 20, 2009, 02:22:49 AM
Quote
Couldn't it be just as possible that they were depicted in that way because, to christians, dragons actually represented evil?

That's certainly plausible, especially when you consider the fact that dragons closely resemble snakes which are  typically represented as symbols of evil where Judeo-Christian mythological imagery is concerned.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on September 20, 2009, 05:09:25 AM
 I've never understood why it was a snake they chose to represent "satan" in that story. But it is deeply ingrained into most of society. You'll hear the phrase "That guy is a snake" but no one ever says "That guy is a saltwater crocodile" The latter seems more dangerous to me.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: LeXtruX on September 20, 2009, 08:06:24 AM
I've never understood why it was a snake they chose to represent "satan" in that story. But it is deeply ingrained into most of society. You'll hear the phrase "That guy is a snake" but no one ever says "That guy is a saltwater crocodile" The latter seems more dangerous to me.
lol, I guess they were lazy?^^
No, but I think they chose a snake because, franctly, the bible was most likely written in Europe and, uhm, no crocs here^^ but there are snakes :)
Also, it's funny, but, christians find snakes evil, right? BUT the symbol of medicens is a snake sipping from a cradle of milk... (I know the legend of the symbol:
It was said that there was somewhere, forgot where, there was a really sick person and the person that took care of the sick one put a cradle of hot milk (and hunny, not sure) next to him.
A snake came by and sipped from it releasing some venom (omg, major holes in the story) and when the sick person drank from the cradle he was miraculously cured.)

xD
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on September 20, 2009, 03:16:19 PM
 Well, change the saying to something in Europe then. But it still doesn't make sense. They have venomous things in Europe too. And it never says anywhere that the snake actually was venomous. I believe it's words were it's venom. There are a lot of things out there scarier than snakes.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: LeXtruX on September 20, 2009, 03:23:56 PM
Euh... I actually said there aren't CROCS (crocodiles) in Europe, but we do have snakes, so I think that's why they used a snake, it's venomous (well, some are), scaled, has 'creepy' eyes (I love snake eyes)... Easy as pie for the average medival christians I guess
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Angelus on September 20, 2009, 03:24:46 PM
The serpent symbolises the idea of "the snake in the grass".  An evil that is hidden. The snake makes no sound while moving and can strike without warning. It can blend in with everyday surroundings and hide in plain sight. Plus if it was a different animal we would be discussing "why that animal" now. So it is what it is.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on September 20, 2009, 03:35:05 PM
 Good point, Angelus. It wouldn't matter what animal they chose, we'd still be dissecting it now.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: LeXtruX on September 20, 2009, 03:40:44 PM
Oh about the dragons of the west... I've heard that in those times some skeletons of dinosaurs were found.
I have never looked it up to see if this was correct.
But if you look at how the dragons look like in the knight's stories, and compare it to a dinosaur... apart from the wings, I don't see much difference
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on September 20, 2009, 03:42:08 PM
 Of course not. Dragons are a 'mythical' creature.... no one actually believes in them. Just like I don't believe in demons, ghosts, and bigfoot. :-D
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Angelus on September 20, 2009, 03:43:55 PM
Theres a church in England that has a "dragons skull" in it that was supposedly killed by a Saint. Its a mastadon skull.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on September 20, 2009, 03:44:56 PM
 Mastodon....... Dragon............ Yeah, they have the same head shape. *<:) *<:) People are so farking stupid. They'll believe damn near anything they hear from a religious person. Idiots.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: KubeSix on September 20, 2009, 03:54:52 PM
I didn't know dragons had two holes in their skulls for a pair of tusks :roll: Go to a museum, you'll see plenty of "dragons"
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Angelus on September 20, 2009, 03:59:17 PM
In a time when dinosaurs and prehistoric animals were never known to exist and they find a giant skull with 2 giant horn like protrusions what else would the simple people of those times think it is. Remember in those times monsters were thought to be one hundred percent real without question. Dont judge the poor people.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Angelus on September 20, 2009, 04:00:21 PM
And remember these people had never seen an elephant either.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on September 20, 2009, 04:04:41 PM
Theres a church in England that has a "dragons skull" in it that was supposedly killed by a Saint. Its a mastadon skull.

 That statement implys that the skull is still there.... and that's what I was responding to. :wink:
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: KubeSix on September 20, 2009, 06:23:41 PM
Theres a church in England that has a "dragons skull" in it that was supposedly killed by a Saint. Its a mastadon skull.

 That statement implys that the skull is still there.... and that's what I was responding to. :wink:

Precisely.

Theres a church in England that has a "dragons skull" in it that was supposedly killed by a Saint. Its a mastadon skull.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on September 26, 2009, 12:27:48 AM
There's another popular theory concerning the origin of dragons which holds that dragons are a merely an agglomeration of the three predatory animals that humans fear the most, namely snakes, big cats and birds of prey. I suppose that might go some way towards explaining the cultural existence of a creature that resembles a large snake with wings as well as talons and large, powerful limbs grafted to it. But really, all of the theories that have been mentioned so far regarding the genesis of dragons, equally plausible. Where the probable origin of a mythical creature is concerned, speculation that is impossible to verify, is about as far as we're going to get.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: LeXtruX on September 26, 2009, 03:07:22 PM
There's another popular theory concerning the origin of dragons which holds that dragons are a merely an agglomeration of the three predatory animals that humans fear the most, namely snakes, big cats and birds of prey. I suppose that might go some way towards explaining the cultural existence of a creature that resembles a large snake with wings as well as talons and large, powerful limbs grafted to it. But really, all of the theories that have been mentioned so far regarding the genesis of dragons, equally plausible. Where the probable origin of a mythical creature is concerned, speculation that is impossible to verify, is about as far as we're going to get.
In Asian cases: Yes
In European cases: Everything but the snake, though still reptile. I have seen and had plenty of dragon statues and bookholders and images and so on. They all look like dinosaurs, long neck, big bulcky body, wings (duh) and a long tail.
Makes me think they saw the skeleton of one of the sauropoda family and added the wings and firebreathing...
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on September 26, 2009, 09:08:06 PM
 Or the Church could have made the whole thing up and used it to scare people.... imagine that... :roll:




 The Church of Rome.... The Original Gangsters.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Raziel on September 26, 2009, 10:17:26 PM
well.... they were Italians. ^_^
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on September 26, 2009, 10:21:51 PM
 Which only furthers my theory....
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on September 27, 2009, 04:34:05 AM
All discussion of Italian gangsters aside, I doubt that such a creature as the dragon could have soley been the creation of the Catholic Church for the simple reason that in many regions in Europe, dragon legends feature creatures from pagan mythology that were merely given an evil new twist by the Christian traditions which replaced the existing native creeds.  In countries like Lithunia for example, dragons which had previously been regarded as benevolent guardians of the people, increasingly became creatures of evil in the new Christian accounts that purpoted to describe the traits of these beasts. You shouldn't give the Church more credit that it's entitled to. They didn't invent these things, but merely distorted exisiting concepts surrounding them.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on September 27, 2009, 06:10:14 AM
All discussion of Italian gangsters aside, I doubt that such a creature as the dragon could have soley been the creation of the Catholic Church for the simple reason that in many regions in Europe, dragon legends feature creatures from pagan mythology that were merely given an evil new twist by the Christian traditions which replaced the existing native creeds.  In countries like Lithunia for example, dragons which had previously been regarded as benevolent guardians of the people, increasingly became creatures of evil in the new Christian accounts that purpoted to describe the traits of these beasts. You shouldn't give the Church more credit that it's entitled to. They didn't invent these things, but merely distorted exisiting concepts surrounding them.

 You have such a beautiful way with words, blow_fly. :roll:

 Do Dragon's have a society of origin? Or do they have roots in nearly every society?
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: KubeSix on September 27, 2009, 11:00:59 AM
I think they'd apply to any civilization... Before the Romans, there were European legends about dragons, there are dragons in Asian mythology and even the Mayans had some form of dragon. (Quetzalcoatl means "Feathered Serpent" i think and some depictions look like a dragon) They're pretty much everywhere, but they've got to have a root somewhere... Mesopotamia maybe? Tiamat had the form of a sea dragon and Mesopotamia's supposed to be the cradle of civilization...
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on September 27, 2009, 06:04:22 PM
Quote
You have such a beautiful way with words, blow_fly. rolleyes


Why, thank you. It is so very nice to have someone compliment me on my eloquence every now and then. 

Quote
They're pretty much everywhere, but they've got to have a root somewhere... Mesopotamia maybe? Tiamat had the form of a sea dragon and Mesopotamia's supposed to be the cradle of civilization...


It's impossible to know one way or the other.  Personally, I'm inclined to  belief that there is no outstanding reason to assume that the concept of dragons can be traced back to any particular  culture or civilization.  Mesopotamia may have predated other civilizations, but that isn't exactly a reason for assuming that other cultures didn't arrive at the concept of huge, serpent like beings independently.  After all, large snakes are found in most regions and parts of the world and these are probably the genesis of most dragon myths.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on September 27, 2009, 06:07:41 PM
 I didn't really think that you could trace it, but I couldn't help but wonder. Seems to me it would be hard to trace something like that when you weren't there...
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on September 28, 2009, 05:30:48 PM
True enough. Yet another reason as to why attempting to discover the true origin of dragons will always be an effort confined to the realm of speculation.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on September 28, 2009, 08:06:54 PM
 The same could be said of many many things. Has anyone ever found evidence of dragons?
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: KubeSix on September 28, 2009, 08:08:35 PM
The same could be said of many many things. Has anyone ever found evidence of dragons?

That church in England with a mastodon skull did :roll: 0:)
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on September 28, 2009, 08:17:03 PM
 *<:) *<:)  The saints.... oh how they slay erroneously....
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on September 28, 2009, 08:55:47 PM
Quote
Has anyone ever found evidence of dragons?


Probably not  because if there was such evidence, you wouldn't be looking them up under the ''Mythical Monsters'' section of the forum in the first place. The best you're going to get in the way of evidence are clumsy efforts to link perfectly mundane phenomena to ancient legends and superstitions. 
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: onishadowolf on September 28, 2009, 10:32:27 PM
In my basement of course...wait I don't have a basement. Want evidence, go to a museum. And think of an intelligent dinosuaur species that gave humans everything and then took it away. Or maybe we just have issues with gaint lizards for no reason.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on September 29, 2009, 06:40:08 AM
 I didn't think dino's were that unintelligent to begin with. And I, personally, don't think dragons would be any more or less so.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on September 29, 2009, 06:42:20 AM
Quote
Has anyone ever found evidence of dragons?


Probably not  because if there was such evidence, you wouldn't be looking them up under the ''Mythical Monsters'' section of the forum in the first place. The best you're going to get in the way of evidence are clumsy efforts to link perfectly mundane phenomena to ancient legends and superstitions. 

 Just because we have to find it in Mythical Monsters, doesn't mean it didn't actually exist. (And, yes, I know you weren't implying otherwise.) I'd be willing to bet that we have found the evidence everyone seeks... but someone messed up, and no one knows about it.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on October 03, 2009, 01:58:15 AM
Quote
I'd be willing to bet that we have found the evidence everyone seeks... but someone messed up, and no one knows about it.

It's not entirely impossible, I'll grant you that. Stranger things have certainly happened. To discuss your theory further, by evidence do you mean actual physical remains? Or something less tangible?
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on October 03, 2009, 05:25:26 AM
 The only evidence that people would actually accept would be physical remains. I'd say somewhere along the lines, someone has found something.... say, a newborn dragon who's wings aren't fully developed... and they've missed that tiny little detail and taken it for just another dinosaur.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: KubeSix on October 03, 2009, 12:52:32 PM
The only evidence that people would actually accept would be physical remains. I'd say somewhere along the lines, someone has found something.... say, a newborn dragon who's wings aren't fully developed... and they've missed that tiny little detail and taken it for just another dinosaur.

Possibly. Birds are descended from dinosaurs, right? So it's possible there were winged quadrupeds.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on October 03, 2009, 02:38:41 PM
 "What are these small bones here? Oh my god... could those be wings?!"   :spy: In steps the Church of Rome....  :gun:



 :banplea:
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on October 07, 2009, 04:06:48 PM
That's an interesting theory that you have there, Kadesh.   But in a hypothetical scenario of that nature, I'd assume that there would be other fossils that would pre-date the dragon remains and which would indicate the existence an evolutionary trail that eventually led to the development of full fledged dragons. If dragons truly did exist at some point as distinct entities, they would have probably been subject to the same evolutionary pressures as all other organic life-forms.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on October 07, 2009, 05:33:44 PM
 Ah, but blow_fly, you're assuming I believe in evolution.  :wink:
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Whitedrake on October 15, 2009, 12:02:54 PM
I used to believe in evolution...but the DD came around, and i felt Darwin role over in his grave...very sad
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on October 18, 2009, 11:46:51 PM
Quote
Ah, but blow_fly, you're assuming I believe in evolution.

Would I be correct then in saying that your probably look at the emergence of organic life from a more creationist perspective? Now just to make myself clear in advance, I'm not  out to cast aspersions on your beliefs so much as to gain insight into them and more specfically, how they relate to the existence of dragons in the wider scheme of things. 
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on October 19, 2009, 05:56:54 AM
 You would be correct indeed, blow_fly. It could be because that's how I was raised and I've never been taught evolution. However, evolution has always seemed a bit silly to me....
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Raziel on October 19, 2009, 02:38:56 PM
Hmm.... really? it always stuck me as plausible. Yo kad, Mind telling me why it seems silly to you? I'd like to see it from a different perspective.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on October 19, 2009, 07:15:51 PM
 Because I've never heard of an ape coming out of a human's va-jay-jay. Or vice versa. And even simpler to me... If things are millions of years old... why doesn't our time line go back that far?
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Raziel on October 19, 2009, 11:24:17 PM
........ Your paint a strange, illogical, and deeply disturbing picture Kadesh.

Alright lemme see if i can explain this.

First off, it doesn't work like that.

Lets say there's a sick kid and a healthy kid. Sick kid is sick because of a weak immune system. Sick kid dies. Healthy kid grows up, has family. Sick kid does not grow up, does not have family.

Now instead of sick and healthy kids, think of monkey people.

Monkey people don't need monkey hands and feet for swinging on trees if they live on open fields or in caves. nor do they need excess body hair.
In fact it makes them needlessly sweaty and smelly.

Over time, since they don't use their feet for monkey tree party swinging, they get flatter. They pass this on to their kids. A teeny bit of DNA is changed. Rinse and repeat until body hair is below monkey people levels.


Now. Imagine instead of monkey sick kids, we have a  wimp and a jock. Since we haven't developed the concepts of right, wrong, sensitivity and hygiene yet. the jock gets the girl simply because he has more appeal. Since we haven't invented the Geneva convention yet, we could have slaves and ladyes.  AND TONS OF BABIES!!!

Also since the alpha males were tribe heads, they got thier pics of mates, food and jobs..... meaning babies and longer life expectancy. Meaning more kids to pass on your characteristics to.

Characteristics that make you successful. Characteristics influenced by genetics since we didn't have a proper educational system then.


Rince and repeat.  Which is why we are hairless relatively  not monkey people. AKA: Evolution.
Note: Writing that hurt more than i thought it would.


And as to why our "timeline"(I'm assuming you mean recorded history) doesn't go back millions of years....

the earliest examples of art were  allegedly made around 40,00 years ago. The development of art shows the the abstract reasoning ability of humans during that age. Earliest examples of symbols were made around 30,000 Ya. These shows that the mental capabilities of our ancestors were merely beginning to grasp concepts through signs.

Think of it as a picture of a flower in a garden. the subject is clearly the flora, but then you start to consider the rest of the image.
Capturing time as the present. categorizing time as the present. Thats what they just figured out.

this was 40,000-30,000 years ago. The earliest writing systems were made around 7,000 BC. We couldn't record history millions of years ago simply because man kind moved around and didn't even know how to write. They could have recorded history through oral tradition(songs). or dances or something but as time goes on without any systematic way of interpreting these movements, they lose meaning until they are not even performed anymore due to people getting bored with them.

So basically we could not record the past because we haven't invented anything  we could use to learn it besides old people's stories......... which due to senility aren't always clear. (but back then, old people were like 30-45 or something.

Did that help Kad?
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on October 20, 2009, 05:17:47 AM
I don't have much to add to Raziel's rather concise explanation of evolution in the way of further elaboration, but I think it's important to bear in mind that evolutionary adaptations manifest randomly in living things due to the  inherent potential for the genetic code of any  organic life-form to diverge in new ways when it is inherited  by succeeding generations. Nature dosen't conciously select  animals or plants with innate advantages. It just so happen that some evolutionary quirks are more useful in a particular environmental context than others.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on October 20, 2009, 06:16:12 AM
 Just a quick question Raz..... who taught people to write? And who taught them all those different languages?
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Raziel on October 20, 2009, 09:54:59 AM
It evolved. Kinda like how there was a rock but nobody knew what to call it.

Say, a cave person sees rock and  calls it "bob". And since the other cave people he knows see the same rock but already heard about it from caveman# 1, they call it "bob" too.

Now when we use pictorial based writing systems like Chinese or hieroglyphics. The initial drawing had people going like " Hey that looks like a "Bob""  And so the drawing is called bob too. Then as time passed, and people used  the symbol as a for of identifying their clans/groups they became known as clan "Bob" or If said clan was named after a person, They called it  "Bob's clan".

other tribes and civilizations had different names and symbols for things, these names and symbols were adapted by other groups and often got different  names and meanings depending on how tribe #2 used them.

Example is the chinese theory for the word ketchup. Here's a copy pasta from wiki.

China theory

One is that the word derives from one of two words from the Fujian region of coastal southern China: "kôe-chiap" (in the Xiamen accent) or "kê-chiap" (in the Zhangzhou accent). Both of these words come from the Amoy dialect of China, where it meant the brine of pickled fish or shellfish.[11] The Chinese characters representing the word kôe-chiap are disputed, with two primary theories as to the word's original Chinese orthography.
[edit] Eggplant sauce

The first theory[12] states that the word "ketchup" derives from a Chinese word composed of two characters (茄汁), which means "eggplant sauce". The first character (茄), meaning "eggplant," is also the root for the word "tomato" (番茄 in Mandarin and Cantonese or 紅毛茄 in Taiwanese), though at the time tomatoes were unknown in China. The second character (汁) means "juice" or "sauce." Pronunciations of this word vary by region, but their similarities to the English "ketchup" can be noticed.
茄汁
Language    Pronunciation (IPA)    Other transcriptions
Cantonese    khe tsɐp    Jyutping    ke2 zap1
Taiwanese    gjo ʑiap    POJ    kiô-chiap
[edit] Fish sauce

The second theory states[citation needed] that "ketchup" derives from an Amoy word of two characters (鮭汁) meaning "fish sauce". The first character literally means "salmon" but can mean just "fish" in general. The second character is the same as in the above-mentioned theory.
鮭汁
Language    Pronunciation (IPA)    Other transcriptions
Cantonese    kwɐi tsɐp    Jyutping    gwai1 zap1
Taiwanese    kue ʑiap    POJ    kôe chiap

______________________________________



See how that goes? 

Another more recent example is "Nevada-tan". Look for it on the internet. Its not her real name but since it was popularized as such, it as become synonymous with her identity.


Word meanings and symbols continue to be imported and exported  even today, despite the well established language systems we have now.

________________________________________________________________


Short answer: People ripped each other off and took advantage of the lack of copyright laws until languages were formed.

____________________________________


No we are not descended from monkeys or Neanderthals.


Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Whitedrake on October 24, 2009, 12:31:52 AM
You would be correct indeed, blow_fly. It could be because that's how I was raised and I've never been taught evolution. However, evolution has always seemed a bit silly to me....
personally i think evolution is pretty much undeniably fact, theres so much evidence to support it.

Because I've never heard of an ape coming out of a human's va-jay-jay. Or vice versa. And even simpler to me... If things are millions of years old... why doesn't our time line go back that far?
also, real nice imagry desh, nw i wont be able to wake up without screaming
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on October 24, 2009, 06:05:38 AM
 That's part of my charm, Drake. :-P


No we are not descended from monkeys or Neanderthals.


 Ok... I was half-assed paying attention when I read that part, Raz. Isn't that exactly the OPPOSITE of what evolution states?
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: onishadowolf on October 24, 2009, 10:05:17 AM
I paid attention, no we didn't descend from monkeys or Neanderthals. They're seperate species, which is why you don't see a Homo-Sapian in front of Neanderthal or type of monkey. We share traits, because we descended from a type of primate;primate, a name for a group of many different species sharing traits. We are distant cousins, only because we share traits, think of them like cousins by marriage actually. Want proof of evolution you can see and feel yourself, go outside a week after a spray for mosquito
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: onishadowolf on October 24, 2009, 10:12:46 AM
....s and when get bite by one, there is your proof. Evolution allowed it to gain immunity to the posion in a short time span(one or two generations).
Better example, look at your dog or your cat. Now everyone ;focus.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on October 24, 2009, 11:03:44 AM
 Then why all the evolution posters of apes to people??
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: onishadowolf on October 24, 2009, 11:35:55 AM
That is an artist's depiction. They are going off the fact that primates are monkey looking ape like, so they draw something monkey looking. Just because it looks a monkey, doesn't mean it is. Primates resemble each other a fair amount. Some people call a howler a monkey, but it is not. A howler is part of the great ape family, see how the similar traits confuse people. Now do I need to go back over high school biology; family, genus, species, kingdom, etc. :-D
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on October 25, 2009, 07:39:38 AM
 I went to a private school for HS.... private school that was in the basement of a home and consisted of 27 students from K-12..... we didn't exactly have the latest in biology lessons... in fact... they were all on video or in books... and from the 80's.

 And I'm not saying evolution isn't a real thing... I believe a species evolves to adapt to its surroundings. I just don't believe it's how everyone and everything got to be here to begin with. Give me all the 'evidence' you want, it's not going to be enough. Call it what you will. We'll just have to agree to disagree. You have your beliefs and I have mine. No harm, no foul. :-)
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: onishadowolf on October 25, 2009, 11:40:05 AM
Lol, okay. We'll just leave this alone. Moving on, Dragons are evil because.....
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Mental Disorder on November 05, 2009, 09:06:30 AM
Dragons could be evil. It depends on what it would be like. There are the classic Fire Dragons, but some could be quite nice and helpful to humanity. So saying it shorter it would mean it soley depends on the dragon. :spy: :-)
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Raziel on November 06, 2009, 02:08:58 PM
Dragons are creatures created by human minds. They are works of fiction and are therefore subject to the artist's own understanding and expression of them.

Dey ain't real.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on November 25, 2009, 09:26:54 AM
 Do you have proof that they aren't real, Razzy? :-)
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Thundergod on November 25, 2009, 02:54:32 PM
I think it is safe to say that our species takes up to much of the earth for us to not find and kill all dragons( which may be the case= all dragons extinct all bones/skin/whatever destroyed and deteriated over time) but if any exist today they are hidden extremely well or invisible. this is not to say they never existed at all.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on December 13, 2009, 12:35:21 PM
 As many people as there are, there are still places that remain a mystery.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: matthew321 on December 14, 2009, 07:13:29 PM
Well this gets into the issue of what is really good and evil. The "evil" female dragon burns down a human village. Well we might call that "evil" even though that human village thought killing dragons and her babies is a good sport. Then she is just a mother protecting her babies. Generally dragons are not evil, they are more neutral and just want peace. They want balance in the universe and humans challenge that balance a lot... Now lets say a dragon gets mad because it see's humans distorting the balance or challenging the balance of the universe. Then after not observing many "good" humans at all the dragon might become righteously enraged and start attacking every human it see's. Now if we get into the argument of no humans around with dragons because humans were not evolved (or created) then. There is always new evidence to show humans have been around forever and there is a theory and religion for everything. I personally believe dragons were coexisting with humans and get sick of people so they decided to live a quieter existence.

So to put it simply Dragons are not evil or bad. It all depends on the angle of how you look at it.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Raziel on December 14, 2009, 08:33:54 PM
Do you have proof that they aren't real, Razzy? :-)

Do you have proof that they are, Kad? :wink:
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on December 21, 2009, 10:20:17 PM
Well this gets into the issue of what is really good and evil. The "evil" female dragon burns down a human village. Well we might call that "evil" even though that human village thought killing dragons and her babies is a good sport. Then she is just a mother protecting her babies. Generally dragons are not evil, they are more neutral and just want peace. They want balance in the universe and humans challenge that balance a lot... Now lets say a dragon gets mad because it see's humans distorting the balance or challenging the balance of the universe. Then after not observing many "good" humans at all the dragon might become righteously enraged and start attacking every human it see's. Now if we get into the argument of no humans around with dragons because humans were not evolved (or created) then. There is always new evidence to show humans have been around forever and there is a theory and religion for everything. I personally believe dragons were coexisting with humans and get sick of people so they decided to live a quieter existence.

So to put it simply Dragons are not evil or bad. It all depends on the angle of how you look at it.


What are your grounds for thinking that dragons might have co-existed with humans at some point? I'm just curious. Thanks.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: matthew321 on December 24, 2009, 08:29:30 PM

[/quote]

What are your grounds for thinking that dragons might have co-existed with humans at some point? I'm just curious. Thanks.
[/quote]

Well it is the fact we have yet discovered another human corpse that "they" have dated back so far that it made humans older then what "they" thought. I also think dragons were living with humans since day one. But they left or hid away from humans when humans started to think and found it fun to slay them. Dragons got sick of the impotence of humans and simply left them. I think the fact (which history channel has also said) every country has had dragons in their history in some way. We have pictures of dragons in every country around the same time frame.

There are some beliefs that also claim dragons left humans. There is a book that talks about the history of dragons and the dragons moving to the astral plane called "Dancing with Dragons" has some very interesting views. This is one claim but it still is interesting.

I think it is very possible for humans to have co existed with dragons.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: Kadesh on December 30, 2009, 12:08:50 PM
Do you have proof that they aren't real, Razzy? :-)

Do you have proof that they are, Kad? :wink:

 Nah, but since it can neither be proved or disproved, you can't really call it in the air, now can ya?
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: blow_fly on December 31, 2009, 05:28:24 PM
Quote
Well it is the fact we have yet discovered another human corpse that "they" have dated back so far that it made humans older then what "they" thought.

Would you happen to be familiar with the circumstances surrounding this  particular discovery? Thanks.
Title: Re: are dragons evil?
Post by: matthew321 on January 01, 2010, 08:24:38 PM
Quote
Well it is the fact we have yet discovered another human corpse that "they" have dated back so far that it made humans older then what "they" thought.

Would you happen to be familiar with the circumstances surrounding this  particular discovery? Thanks.

This was on the history channel a while ago and I think they also had a thing on dragons as well (they ruled dragons never existed). They discovered a human corpse witch was the oldest one found yet. I'm trying really hard to remember the name of it.... It was a simple name...

I'll get back to you on this